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Cleveland Talk • View topic - The push to Socialism

The push to Socialism

Discuss local, regional, state, federal, and world politics. Keep it classy, Cleveland.

The push to Socialism

Postby Michaels153 » February 25th, 2020, 10:26 am

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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby Mrtazeman » February 25th, 2020, 2:18 pm

Can you point out any country in the world with unregulated capitalism that worked? US isnt a pure capitalist country..
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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby Michaels153 » February 26th, 2020, 11:28 am

No, but that does not mean that Socialism is the answer. Socialists point to problems like a democrat and says there is only one way to deal with the problem - their way. The step from a socialist act or policy to socialism is the difference between freedom and compliance to an ever increasing list of restrictions. How is Socialism better at solving problems than Capitalism?
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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby leftyg » February 26th, 2020, 12:15 pm

The problem is Michaels, pure capitalism is not the answer either. We ave to find a sweet spot where things work. And the real global shift is not to socialism; it is to oligarchy. plutocracy and kleptocracy. We no longer blink when one person makes more money than tern million people. And we should blink a lot because that is crazy, a lot crazier than a woman on welfare "scamming" t he government so she can feed her kids.

When I looked at what you said, I realized you proffered a false dichotomy. The problem is: how do we find a combination of the two that works because what we have now simply does not.
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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby Michaels153 » February 26th, 2020, 5:29 pm

Well I politely disagree with your oversimplification in your global assessment. You have identified other areas that can become problems but are not always problems. Rule by a few as in an oligarchy can be more efficient than death by committee. Our own history reminds us that our native americans were more efficient an orderly in their own tribes, than when they joined in pacts with multiple tribes. Our local and even state Governments sometimes run more efficiently than Congress does. The same can be said for plutocracy, with examples of benevolent kings during the middle ages and before that. But all your choices have show your common disdain for wealth, and belief that wealth is evidence of "something" being wrong. Yet, previous solutions "proffered by you always include those who have "wealth". Always bite the hand that feeds you?
Pure capitalism is not without problems. When you have something wrong with your own car you try to fix it. You don't try to add another car to your broken car. Instead of looking for greener grass on the other side of the fence, take a soil sample and identify what is missing or needs improving. :)
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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby leftyg » February 27th, 2020, 8:25 pm

You oversimplified the problem Michaels, making it an either or between capitalism and communism. Rule by a few may lbe efficient, but all the ducats will wind up in their accounts and that is the road to slavery.

I have no more disdain for weath than Jesus did when he threw the moneychangers out of the Temple. Look money is fine, but huge disaprities are sure and they are cured by taxes. One way to look at it is the Gini INdex. Look at this link, and go around to all the countries and see haow it varies http://worldpopulationreview.com/countr ... y-country/ Also, Look at the Happiness Index https://countryeconomy.com/demography/w ... ness-index Both are simple and easy to understand. Notice that the happiest countries have the lwoest Gini Indexes which may mean something.

Michaels I have to go watch Jeopardy now because I am qn addict of that show. Later.
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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby Michaels153 » February 28th, 2020, 3:56 am

[quote="leftyg"]You oversimplified the problem Michaels, perhaps, but I thought I was clearing out the junk and making it easier for you to see what you were targeting - wealth. Governments the world over try different things (experiment if you will), in their efforts to address the needs of their people.
Here, in this country, we have been tempted by you, liberals, the left, progressives, socialists, and even communists to abandon Capitalism because it is not perfect, as if another way would be perfect (Utopia).
making it an either or between capitalism and communism. Rule by a few may lbe efficient, but all the ducats will wind up in their accounts and that is the road to slavery. Really, again with the wealth, and the implication that it winds up in the hands of the few and that is the road to slavery. You know Leftyg, many today believe that the overbearing nature of our government today leaves it's citizens as modern day serfs, in a type of slavery. It is not just in the way you look at things, how you want to see it. But I really do not want to go down the road of psychological explanations here.

I have no more disdain for wealth (I added the l) than Jesus did when he threw the moneychangers out of the Temple. You know I really did not want to go to Biblical examples because of examples like this. The money changers could have done their work elsewhere. Jesus' said: My house shall be called the house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves. Jesus was pointing out the inappropriate nature of what the money changers were doing in the temple, (not that what they were doing was wrong period). The Bible is filled with examples of people that God had blessed with wealth, meaning that there was nothing wrong with people having it. Abraham, Lot, Jacob, David, Solomon, all were blessed by God with wealth. There were examples of other people who were wealthy that God judged and punished. Please do not try to make an oversimplification here on wealth. To me, that is from my point of view, people should not look at money as simply the difference between the "have's and the have nots"(As you stated, an either / or condition) Look money is fine, but huge disaprities are sure and they are cured by taxes. Look at you, in one breath: "money is fine", and even as you exhale you declare money to be something like a disease that needs a cure for, and well what do you know, you already know what the cure for money is because according to you, it is "cured by taxes." One way to look at it is the Gini INdex. Not again Look at this link, No, I am through with the Gini Index, having discussed it with you before, and having no desire to do so again.and go around to all the countries and see haow it varies http://worldpopulationreview.com/countr ... y-country/ Also, Look at the Happiness Index
[color=#FF0000]The happiness index, sheesh, Hebrews 13:5...";and be content with such things as ye have." (And my next comment is something you would resort to. I never heard of Jesus telling anybody, Move to Finland and be ye happy.) From the Gini index to the Happiness Index, you persist in your Jihad against wealth, as if to declare that lack of money is equal to despair, but you neglect counter examples in life that show that not all people who do not have (Whatever amount you make as the "happiness line") are unhappy. And there are plenty of people who are wealthy who are not happy either.
And I wished I was watching television instead of responding to your post. Television is definitely higher up in my happiness index than responding to posts.
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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby leftyg » February 28th, 2020, 1:12 pm

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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby Michaels153 » March 3rd, 2020, 8:09 pm

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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby leftyg » March 4th, 2020, 1:50 pm

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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby Michaels153 » March 4th, 2020, 8:17 pm

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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby leftyg » March 5th, 2020, 5:31 pm

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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby Michaels153 » March 6th, 2020, 4:11 am

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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby leftyg » March 7th, 2020, 1:31 pm

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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby Michaels153 » March 8th, 2020, 5:59 pm

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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby Mrtazeman » March 12th, 2020, 4:32 am

When rightwing propaganda machine talks about capitalism it is not to protect freedom, it is because they are paid to get republicans elected that will increase the economic and political power of corporations and wealthy individuals while reducing that of ordinary Americans and entities which represent them. The closer you can get to pure capitalism the easier that will be...
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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby leftyg » March 12th, 2020, 11:25 am

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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby Michaels153 » March 12th, 2020, 1:08 pm

The last two posts by Leftyg and Mrtazeman were just commentary (not a single reference). You both stated your opinions, which to me sounds like the liberal echo chamber. If you want to keep your last two posts as just your opinions fine. But if you have anything in the manner of evidence that you could point to as being the basis of your opinion I would like to hear it. Why don't you follow Toulmin's method of argumentation - Leftyg. Why don't you make these statements your claims and then bring out your grounds?
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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby Michaels153 » March 12th, 2020, 3:18 pm

Leftyg, you said: "both Capitalism and socialism seem implied in the constitution."
Where is socialism implied in the constitutton?
You also wrote: "as if the framers figured we needed a little of both."
When was the constitution written?
When was Socialism conceptualized?
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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby leftyg » March 12th, 2020, 4:01 pm

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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby leftyg » March 12th, 2020, 4:07 pm

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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby Michaels153 » March 13th, 2020, 2:22 am

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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby leftyg » March 14th, 2020, 3:16 pm

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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby Michaels153 » March 14th, 2020, 4:15 pm

Tax cuts do grow the economy. I proved it. My 3/13/20 post here provided links showing it worked. Move on. Next.
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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby leftyg » March 15th, 2020, 8:13 pm

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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby Michaels153 » March 16th, 2020, 11:50 am

Last edited by Michaels153 on March 16th, 2020, 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby leftyg » March 16th, 2020, 1:08 pm

Bangforthebuck.png
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graph.png

Now this is hard empirical evidence. You may not like it. Nothing you put up showed an outcome because it did not address the issue of demand, and it was not a study. What you had was predictive theories that have never held up.

We need to stop shouting and stick to evidence; predictions are not evidence
Attachments
US-national-debt-GDP-graph.png
US-national-debt-GDP-graph.png (20.61 KiB) Viewed 815 times
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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby Michaels153 » March 16th, 2020, 4:06 pm

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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby leftyg » March 16th, 2020, 10:37 pm

You have clearly abdicated reason. You reject empirical evidence and accept the Mad Hatter rantings of far right pundits who merely say things and never prove any of it with evidence,just with hollow claims. I gave you hard empirical data
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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby Michaels153 » March 17th, 2020, 12:21 pm

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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby leftyg » March 17th, 2020, 4:38 pm

Michaels, what is the pint of the last post. People on my side of the political divide do not hate America, at least I don't. and would you learn the difference between social democracy and communism. I am beginning to think that maybe you are a fascist. What are you a conservative or a fascist. You know there is a difference. It sounds like a quick way for you to dismiss people that you do not agree with and dismiss their ideas. You sound as demented as Dennis Prager.

And please enough of Lloyd Marcus. for Go's sake stop cutting and posting the drivel of idiots like that. First of all "a negative liberty" is like the ten commandments that are negative laws that tell you what you cannot do so that in doing they make all other things available to you.

Liberals do not poke the eye of God; they simply say that no religious group can impose its values on America. That is a great idea. If you want religious freedom then all religions have to have voice, and none gets to impost their particular values.

And Marcus does quote John Adams, but misunderstands his words. You cannot be a true Christian and back stand your ground laws and dismiss the killing of young black men or anybody else. God frowns on people who lack compassion.

Stop pasting right wing drivel and address me directly.
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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby leftyg » March 17th, 2020, 4:42 pm

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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby leftyg » March 17th, 2020, 5:28 pm

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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby Michaels153 » March 18th, 2020, 6:56 am

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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby Mrtazeman » March 18th, 2020, 9:38 am

So, Trump is discussing giving every American $1000 to close to every citizen. This is a Socialist concept. Looks like Trump is blowing holes through this concept that "Pure Capitalism" economics can work. If republicans actually believed in their economic philosophy, they would want big corporations and the very wealthy to receive this money, because that has been their philosophy for every given economic situation. A pure capitalist such as some people on this website should want the government to do nothing and let the chips fall where they fall..
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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby Michaels153 » March 18th, 2020, 11:08 am

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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby leftyg » March 18th, 2020, 2:30 pm

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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby Michaels153 » March 19th, 2020, 10:37 am

Re: The push to Socialism
Post by leftyg » March 17th, 2020, 3:42 pm

I did not want to take a post you wrote, Michaels down. But you put up an irrelevant post over on the Bob Frantz cite. I did not want you to think that I am censoring your ideas. All I want to do is put it in the right spot. And this thread (your thread) seemed more appropriate. So now your going to take down your March 13th, 2018 post in my Billy Graham thread?
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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby leftyg » March 20th, 2020, 11:49 am

I did not want to take a post you wrote, Michaels down. But you put up an irrelevant post over on the Bob Frantz cite. I did not want you to think that I am censoring your ideas. All I want to do is put it in the right spot. And this thread (your thread) seemed more appropriate. So now your going to take down your March 13th, 2018 post in my Billy Graham thread?
The post you put there was irrelient beacause it was not about Bob Frantz or anything he said. I did find a perfect place to put it, so I put it there. If I did not have a place to put it where it was not inline with the argument. I would have left it alone. I will never censor your ideas, but I will move them to where they do the most good

My posts over at the Frantz thread always involve things Frantz has said. Sometimes he says things about Trump. If he said what you said it would have stayed also. Listen, I never put up irrelevant stuff about Frantz. He is our areas far right extremist, and for that I think he is dangerous and has to be exposed.

As to Billy Graham, I will go back and look at the post.
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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby leftyg » March 20th, 2020, 11:54 am

Michaels, I looked, and you were right. I do not know how it got there, but it did. So I moved it here to show you were right and deleted it over there. Thanks for the correction.

growth in spendin hc.png
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leftyg
 
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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby Michaels153 » March 20th, 2020, 12:31 pm

Leftyg,
Fair enough. Thank you.
The Liberal Creed: Take all the money you can, from all the people you can, in all the ways that you can, for as long as you can.
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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby Mrtazeman » March 21st, 2020, 10:41 am

Helping people is a Christian concept

Its also a socialist concept
Real USA
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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby leftyg » March 21st, 2020, 1:41 pm

What astounds me is the far right's effort to reduce Christianity to something else besides the practice of love for your fellow humans among other things. This is one of my pet peeves with these people. They show their love by supporting the death penalty , preemptive war, stand your ground killings the whole bit. I remember not long ago that Bob Frantz exposed a priest for espousing a gospel that looked like Matthew the fifth and sixth chapters. It is kindly called liberation theology. But all it is is really practicing Christianity the way Jesus did in his ministry on earth with alms for the poor and compassion and forgiveness for all. But Frantz and his buddy, some old right wing bigot who tries to fit Christianity into the square peg hole that is the Christianity they believe in. In Effect, they are actively trying to take the Gospel and the Sermon on the Mount out of Christianity and replace it with a sterner more loveless version where only aborted fetuses are grieved and others are thrown to the curve.
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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby Michaels153 » March 22nd, 2020, 12:37 pm

Without a personal relationship with The Lord Jesus Christ there can be no understanding of Christianity. Having accepted Jesus Christ as your Lord and saviour is the first step, the beginning. There is no acceptance of Jesus minus this or that. And there is no acceptance of Jesus Christ with this or that. Liberation theology is a blending of some things that Jesus said and taught (but not all things that he said and taught) with Marxism.
Liberation theology is not Christian theology. Bob Frantz should be thanked for exposing the fraud. You should stop hindering people from finding Jesus Christ by lying to them and telling them that they can do things other than what the Lord Jesus Christ said they should do.
The Liberal Creed: Take all the money you can, from all the people you can, in all the ways that you can, for as long as you can.
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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby leftyg » March 22nd, 2020, 5:34 pm

I think you are right about how people should not criticize others walk with Christ if there is no "understanding of Christianity. For example what I want to know is how can a person be a Christian and support racism and organizations like the Klu Klux Klan. Kee p it simple Michaels, a yes or no will do.

But it is hard for me to be short winded on this subject because I think that father Koesel's bonafides as a Christian far exceed those of Bob Frantz who burns with haterd. You see you cannot be a racist and a Christian; you cannot support standing your ground and killing young black people and be a Christian. Gore Vidal called such people Christers, and they are an abomination.
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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby Michaels153 » March 24th, 2020, 1:34 am

No.
The same holds true for abortion where Catholics have been denied communion and threatened with excommunication.
The Liberal Creed: Take all the money you can, from all the people you can, in all the ways that you can, for as long as you can.
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Re: The push to Socialism

Postby Michaels153 » March 27th, 2020, 9:47 am

Hey Mrtazeman.
How about you sharing with us when helping others in this country is a Christian act, or when it is a Socialist act?
The Liberal Creed: Take all the money you can, from all the people you can, in all the ways that you can, for as long as you can.
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