The election is over........

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The election is over........

Postby Scorpion » November 8th, 2012, 11:43 pm

let the layoffs begin.

There are larger businesses already announcing layoffs, as well. Among those doing so just in the 48 hours since President Obama was reelected are:

Westinghouse, Research in Motion Ltd., Lightyear Network Solutions, Providence Journal, Hawker Beechcraft, Boeing, CVPH Medical Center, ING,Momentive Performance Materials, Husqvarna, SRA International, Darden Restaurants,, Rocketdyne, and Rockwell Collins.

Companies that have announced layoffs in the past month include Cummins, Bristol Myers, Corning, Lockeed Martin, Kimberly Clark, Dow Chemical and Zynga.

If that isn't enough, here's what we have to look forward to thanks to the new ObamaCare taxes:

Boston Scientific anticipates $100 million in additional taxes next year, with layoffs to follow. Medtronic estimates a $175 million loss in 2013 and will cut 1,000 workers. Stryker plans 1,170 job cuts.

Other medical manufacturers will follow: Smith & Nephew, with 770 layoffs; Abbott Labs, 700; Covidien, 595; Kinetic Concepts, 427; St. Jude Medical, 300; Welch Allyn 275; and Hill Rom, 200.

What's more, as Neil Shirley points out:

Cook Medical put plans for five new U.S. manufacturing facilities on hold and will likely redirect growth overseas. Boston Scientific recently announced a $150 million investment in China over the next five years for new manufacturing facilities and 1,000 employees.

Costs will be offset with layoffs, cutting R&D, and higher prices to their customers, hospitals and provider groups. Hospitals will pass it to insurance providers, who will pass it to us in higher insurance premiums.

Forward!

http://townhall.com/tipsheet/carolplattliebau/2012/11/08/the_obama_job_cuts_begin
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Re: The election is over........

Postby JuicedTruth » November 9th, 2012, 12:13 am

Zynga, haha. It's Obama's fault that tricking idiots into paying hundreds of dollars to build a farm on Facebook didn't turn out to be a sustainable business model.

I agree, "the election is over" and you guys are still nutters :lol:
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Re: The election is over........

Postby TribefanstuckinMA » November 9th, 2012, 12:28 am

JuicedTruth wrote:...I agree, "the election is over" and you guys are still nutters :lol:

And you're still an ass.

You've complained and questioned why there is limited traffic on this board. In the nearly 2 years it's been in existence there are barely over 100 members. Warm bodies in many cases, since there are only around two dozen of us who participate at least semi-regularly. Of those there is a baker's dozen who have hit at least 1,000 posts. In 21 months. Sad.

SSDD around here. Until the tone of ALL improves this place will remain...small.
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Re: The election is over........

Postby JuicedTruth » November 9th, 2012, 7:32 am

I agree, Tribefan. As long as posts are blaming Obama for any negative thing that happens, no matter how ridiculous, the tone will be bad!
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Re: The election is over........

Postby hoosierguy » November 9th, 2012, 9:42 am

Interesting lack of accountability there. You said something I don't like, so I responded like an unmitigated ass, and it's your fault. Perhaps the fault lies with the guy who is fighting with Dan, me, Tribe, Scorp, and Joe.
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Re: The election is over........

Postby Scorpion » November 9th, 2012, 9:48 am

JuicedTruth wrote:I agree, Tribefan. As long as posts are blaming Obama for any negative thing that happens, no matter how ridiculous, the tone will be bad!

I don't recall mentioning Obama.
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Re: The election is over........

Postby JuicedTruth » November 9th, 2012, 11:11 am

Okay, fine, the article you were compelled to post said it.
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Re: The election is over........

Postby JuicedTruth » November 9th, 2012, 11:14 am

Interesting lack of accountability there. You said something I don't like, so I responded like an unmitigated ass, and it's your fault. Perhaps the fault lies with the guy who is fighting with Dan, me, Tribe, Scorp, and Joe.


Be honest. I'm not fighting with Joe.
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Re: The election is over........

Postby Scorpion » November 9th, 2012, 11:33 am

JuicedTruth wrote:Okay, fine, the article you were compelled to post said it.

There are consequences to a 2,700 page piece of legislation.
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Re: The election is over........

Postby JuicedTruth » November 9th, 2012, 11:54 am

LOL. Zynga layoffs have nothing to do with Obamacare. I know that from knowing the company. I don't care to research your information for you, but I'd guess the rest of those companies have issues far being health care. Welcome to the bubble.
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Re: The election is over........

Postby Scorpion » November 9th, 2012, 12:03 pm

JuicedTruth wrote:LOL. Zynga layoffs have nothing to do with Obamacare. I know that from knowing the company. I don't care to research your information for you, but I'd guess the rest of those companies have issues far being health care. Welcome to the bubble.

You focus on Zynga. :roll:
Laughable.
Did you miss the numerous other LARGE employers who are re-evaluating their business plans based upon the requirements of this legislation?
From direct layoffs to hiring more part-time staff and reducing full-time staff, potential consequences.
What will happen next? Will the Federal government pass legislation requiring businesses to have a set full-time, part-time ratio?
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Re: The election is over........

Postby hoosierguy » November 9th, 2012, 12:05 pm

LOL. Scorp, if you think you are going to get a real discussion, you're dreaming. That low tolerance for bull is getting tested, huh?
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Re: The election is over........

Postby Scorpion » November 9th, 2012, 12:14 pm

hoosierguy wrote:LOL. Scorp, if you think you are going to get a real discussion, you're dreaming. That low tolerance for bull is getting tested, huh?

We can only hope the reporting proves to be wrong, But, if unemloyment is stagnant or worse and conditions for all citizens do not improve the left will still blame Bush. :roll:
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Re: The election is over........

Postby JuicedTruth » November 9th, 2012, 12:22 pm

This might be the most unintentionally funny thread ever posted here. Tell me, Scorp, since I'm far too dumb to figure it out myself:

What is your point and how is your point supported by this article?
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Re: The election is over........

Postby wobbly » November 9th, 2012, 12:27 pm

Scorpion wrote:
JuicedTruth wrote:LOL. Zynga layoffs have nothing to do with Obamacare. I know that from knowing the company. I don't care to research your information for you, but I'd guess the rest of those companies have issues far being health care. Welcome to the bubble.

You focus on Zynga. :roll:
Laughable.
Did you miss the numerous other LARGE employers who are re-evaluating their business plans based upon the requirements of this legislation?
From direct layoffs to hiring more part-time staff and reducing full-time staff, potential consequences.
What will happen next? Will the Federal government pass legislation requiring businesses to have a set full-time, part-time ratio?


Lets take a look at one of those large employers mentioned in your article. This article is from following the Westinghouse link in your article. As you can see the layoffs have nothing to do with Obamacare. The right will go to any lengths to attach bad news to the President. Wobbly

More layoffs announced at Anniston weapons incinerator
Nov 08, 2012 | 6330 views | 6 | 9 | |
http://annistonstar.com/view/full_story ... e=1st_left

The company that operated Anniston’s chemical weapons incinerator has 50 fewer workers today as part of continuing efforts to close down the facility.

According to a Wednesday press release from Westinghouse Anniston, the contractor responsible for shutting down the facility, the employee drawdown today will affect 50 workers at the Anniston Chemical Agent Disposal Facility. The facility reached another closure milestone and so no longer needs the labor.

Workers there destroyed the last of Anniston’s chemical weapons stockpile in September 2011 and has been undergoing closure efforts ever since.

The release states that the layoffs are expected to be a permanent reduction in the facility’s workforce. Not including the latest round of layoffs, Westinghouse has downsized its workforce by approximately 100 positions over the last year through attrition, transfers of employees to other sites and voluntary departures. After the layoffs, there will still be 650 people working at the incinerator for Westinghouse and its subcontractors along with 20 government employees.

Among the workers who no longer have jobs at the facility: four paramedics, three munitions handlers, three mechanical technicians and an environmental engineer.

Guy Campbell, system contractor project manager for Westinghouse, said the closure program reached the major milestone of disassembling equipment in areas were chemical weapons were destroyed.

“We have a schedule with intermittent milestones and this is the next milestone we’re getting ready to achieve,” Campbell said.

Currently, Westinghouse projects the facility will be completely closed in the second quarter of 2015, which is earlier than original projections, Campbell said.

“We’re exceeding expectations,” he said. “We’re making very, very good progress in regards to our schedule.”

Available to help the workers find new jobs is the Operation 1st Rate program, administered by the Calhoun County Chamber of Commerce. The program is using a $740,000 federal grant in part to help workers at the incinerator find new employment as the work there ended. The program also assists workers laid off at the Anniston Army Depot.

Sherri Sumners, executive director of the Chamber of Commerce Foundation and overseer of Operation 1st Rate, said the program was ready to aid workers included in the latest round of layoffs if needed.

“Oh absolutely, this was one of the reasons we opened our new office at Quintard Mall — to make the program more accessible to people being laid off,” Sumners said.

Sumners added that three new people were recently hired to assist in the program and connect unemployed workers with employers in the area.

“We’re doing everything we can to help people,” Sumners said.

U.S. Army spokesman Mike Abrams said there was still much work to be done at the incinerator, including further equipment teardowns and safety checks to ensure no chemical agent remains at the site.

“We cannot just open the doors and tear the place down,” Abrams said. “We have to be very particular in the work … to protect the workforce and the environment.”


Read more: Anniston Star - More layoffs announced at Anniston weapons incinerator
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Re: The election is over........

Postby hoosierguy » November 9th, 2012, 12:32 pm

OK Wobbly, let's cut the crap, shall we? Do you think Obamacare will have a positive, negative, or no effect on hiring?
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Re: The election is over........

Postby JuicedTruth » November 9th, 2012, 12:38 pm

This conversation gets more amazing.
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Re: The election is over........

Postby hoosierguy » November 9th, 2012, 12:54 pm

Mainly through your contributions.
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Re: The election is over........

Postby Scorpion » November 9th, 2012, 12:56 pm

JuicedTruth wrote:This conversation gets more amazing.

Yeah, you're right. You see the glass half full, I see it half empty. Doubt that will change.
Europe is not doing very well right now and there is no indication things will get better on our front either.
So, yeah, I'm not very optimistic.

Time to bake some banana bread, start a crockpot of chili (making extra to take to an aunt and uncles house since we just found out he has esophageal cancer and since she's so arthritic and can barely raise her arms to shoulder height it would be nice if they didnt have to be concerned with cooking a meal or two, 28 days of radiation to come but estimate is a year and he recently retired and is only 67. Very sad situation since other health issues preclude an attempt at chemo), do some house cleaning and flip through the paper or read a book.

So have a great day and continue to be condescending to those with whom you don't agree.
It would be shocking to expect otherwise.
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Re: The election is over........

Postby JuicedTruth » November 9th, 2012, 12:58 pm

Just answer the question I asked already, Scorp:

What is your point and how is your point supported by this article?
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Re: The election is over........

Postby hoosierguy » November 9th, 2012, 1:08 pm

Ask yourself this question: Why would anyone bother to respond to your questions in any serious manner if they know that your most likely response is going to be some snarky condescending response, riddled with straw man attacks and schoolyard taunts?
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Re: The election is over........

Postby wobbly » November 9th, 2012, 1:36 pm

JuicedTruth wrote:Just answer the question I asked already, Scorp:

What is your point and how is your point supported by this article?


The point is, that Obama and Obamacare are bad, they just are. The article is nonsense, that no one bothered to read. Apparently businesses sometimes lay off people following bankruptcy. They can't defend the article, so the problem must be with you.
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Re: The election is over........

Postby Scorpion » November 9th, 2012, 2:08 pm

wobbly wrote:
JuicedTruth wrote:Just answer the question I asked already, Scorp:

What is your point and how is your point supported by this article?


The point is, that Obama and Obamacare are bad, they just are. The article is nonsense, that no one bothered to read. Apparently businesses sometimes lay off people following bankruptcy. They can't defend the article, so the problem must be with you.

The point is that there are many factors that affect the economic success of this country and legislation passed by Congress, however well intentioned, can have consequences that can exacerbate the road to economic recovery.
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Re: The election is over........

Postby JuicedTruth » November 9th, 2012, 2:09 pm

The point is, that Obama and Obamacare are bad, they just are. The article is nonsense, that no one bothered to read. Apparently businesses sometimes lay off people following bankruptcy. They can't defend the article, so the problem must be with you.


You hit the nail on the head. It's no surprise this article came from Townhall (a fine bubble publication) and was lapped up by those living in the bubble.

Remember Rule #1 of the bubble: facts don't matter.

Obamacare is bad and we'll use a bunch of terrible examples of companies laying off employees for reasons other than Obamacare as evidence!

So you use false evidence, pretend it actually is evidence hoping nobody notices, and then when shown that the evidence was bad, you respond "who cares about the evidence, Obamacare is still bad!" You know, there is a thing called causation and a thing called correlation. The differences between the two matter. A lot.

If you don't get how ridiculous you guys are being in this thread, you're lost causes.
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Re: The election is over........

Postby hoosierguy » November 9th, 2012, 2:12 pm

Please refer to my earlier query: Why would anyone respond to you knowing that you'll just do...well...what you just did. Be dismissive and arrogant and present a bunch of false scenarios and misrepresentations?

I could present evidence from my personal life to demonstrate that people will lose their job due to Obamacare. But you'll probably just attribute them to Chris Farley and delete all my posts, so we cycle back to, once again, why bother?
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Re: The election is over........

Postby JuicedTruth » November 9th, 2012, 2:29 pm

Keep firin' them red herrings!
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Re: The election is over........

Postby hoosierguy » November 9th, 2012, 2:31 pm

Keep proving my point.
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Re: The election is over........

Postby JuicedTruth » November 9th, 2012, 2:42 pm

So let's get back to the original article.

Hoosier, since you've been gleefully making fun of any article posted here that was written by a liberal, what do you personally think of this article that implies these companies' layoffs are a result of Obama / Obamacare, when in fact we already know several of them are experiencing troubles that have nothing to do with Obama.
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Re: The election is over........

Postby JuicedTruth » November 9th, 2012, 2:44 pm

And let's add Research In Motion to the list of companies.

They haven't made a relevant smart phone since 2006. It's OBAMACARE'S FAULT THAT APPLE AND GOOGLE MADE BETTER PHONES!
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Re: The election is over........

Postby hoosierguy » November 9th, 2012, 2:54 pm

Let me repeat: Keep proving my point. I haven't "gleefully" anything about anyone.

I think that layoffs are an unfortunate consequence of a number of events, and rarely can be traced to one thing unless you actually know the inner-workings of the specific enterprise. So when a business owner says they let people go specifically because of one factor, I tend to doubt it. This may be the most relevant factor and might influence the timing, but it is rarely the unique factor.

Example: A coal company in Nevada recently laid off some 100 workers and blames Obama for it. War on coal, etc. While I have absolutely no doubt the Obama administration has made life significantly more difficult for this business owner, the decreasing cost of natural gas had to play a role in the necessity of this company firing that many people.

That is why I think the relevant question isn't: "Did Obama cause people to get fired?" but "Are Obama's policies favorable to create a growing economy, or damaging to the efforts of the private sector to grow?"

So, given my expectation that this response will be met with snarky, snide and rude comments, and possibly just deleted or altered in some way, I will gleefully do something. Go do something outside, nice days are in short supply.
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Re: The election is over........

Postby JuicedTruth » November 9th, 2012, 3:34 pm

So do you think the article was fair and honest in its presentation? Was it a good article to post? Is it worth understanding the merits of a piece before posting it?
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Re: The election is over........

Postby Scorpion » November 9th, 2012, 3:53 pm

JuicedTruth wrote:So do you think the article was fair and honest in its presentation? Was it a good article to post? Is it worth understanding the merits of a piece before posting it?

Condescending again.
Is it a requirement to submit to a review board before posting an article here?
Ever read those posted by wobbly from Mother Jones etc.?
Not the least bit one-sided. :roll:
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Re: The election is over........

Postby hoosierguy » November 9th, 2012, 4:01 pm

I'm not going to excuse it because Wobbly posts biased crap Scorp, but I think we are woefully qualified to dismiss it as well. The fact is that we have no idea why these layoffs have taken place. We can make somewhat educated guesses that market factors played a role, but we have no idea if the companies had internally accounted for those market forces and the political forces were unaccounted for, leading to the layoffs.

At the end of the day, I think it would be wise to focus on the big issue, not get caught up in "Is this one article a perfect example of a phenomenon?"
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Re: The election is over........

Postby Scorpion » November 9th, 2012, 5:56 pm

There has been chatter that some employers would consider and follow through with layoffs or cutbacks as a result of this legislation.
Yes, this is one of many factors when businesses make decisions.
He attacks me over this one authors presumptions as being the only reason.
Many articles are given just so much space for a column and ALL factors are not covered.
The author chose to focus on the ACA.
Liberal authors will do the same thing to support their initial point.
It was a starting point for discussion for Pete's sake.

We all could have attacked him for that ridiculous chart he posted yesterday but some things arent worth responding to on the level he's taken this to.
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Re: The election is over........

Postby hoosierguy » November 9th, 2012, 6:03 pm

Scorp, I wasn't attacking you. And I certainly wasn't defending anyone else who seems to be dedicated to misrepresenting every single post you (and Dan. and I. And Tribe) make. I couldn't agree more with your last statement. Sometimes things aren't worth justifying through response.
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Re: The election is over........

Postby Scorpion » November 9th, 2012, 6:12 pm

hoosierguy wrote:Scorp, I wasn't attacking you. And I certainly wasn't defending anyone else who seems to be dedicated to misrepresenting every single post you (and Dan. and I. And Tribe) make. I couldn't agree more with your last statement. Sometimes things aren't worth justifying through response.

I didn't mean you Hoos.
Instead of having a reasoned counterpoint, Juiced seems to always have a smartass response.
Note his initial comment. :roll:
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Re: The election is over........

Postby Butters » November 9th, 2012, 10:08 pm

Scorpion wrote:There has been chatter that some employers would consider and follow through with layoffs or cutbacks as a result of this legislation.
Yes, this is one of many factors when businesses make decisions.
He attacks me over this one authors presumptions as being the only reason.
Many articles are given just so much space for a column and ALL factors are not covered.
The author chose to focus on the ACA.
Liberal authors will do the same thing to support their initial point.
It was a starting point for discussion for Pete's sake.

We all could have attacked him for that ridiculous chart he posted yesterday but some things arent worth responding to on the level he's taken this to.

On the level of dialogue issue - I think people here generally are too quick to attack the other side wholesale without being honestly willing to examine legitimate points; after all, I think we all in our hearts know that the other side often has at least good points, if not conclusions, but in the heat of debate we tend not to be willing to admit that. I don't think the tone is terrible (though it is at times quite frustrating), but it could be better.

And as for what Tribefan said about the forum, a good and solid point. However, while a better tone might attract more members, I have to say that the challenge of getting a forum going without the draw of being attached to a radio station, like it's predecessor was, is a daunting challenge to begin with, and I think Juiced has done a wonderful job. I very much appreciate the work he has put it into this, and I am honestly grateful every time I visit the site that he did it. And I have also noticed that, occasional snarky comment aside, the level of Juiced's own dialogue is much higher than on the old forum, though I don't know if that's because of the new site or not - he will sometimes make an unfair comment, but I have noticed that he will often admit that said comment was unfair or hyperbole when confronted. So, no attacks on Juiced from me on this count - I'm too appreciative of what he has done here. Tribefan had a very legitimate point, however, and I think we should all take note of it.



Okay, to the merits of Scorp's overall point in this thread. My expectation was that the short-term economic indicators would react positively to a Romney win and negative to an Obama win. However, I have to be honest and admit I didn't think either was a direct reflection on the candidate's perspective economic arguments. I thought the positive reaction to a Romney win would be a mandate in a clear direction to try to fix the economy, and the negative reaction to an Obama win would be because of fears of inability of the federal government to reach an agreement on the pressing issues, such as passing a budget or averting the fiscal cliff.

I want to be clear - I do believe Romney's policies would have been better, I believe the outlook for the next four years would have been better, and I think Obamacare is a terrible idea and a potential drag on businesses (thought that varies some with the specifics of a business). But I don't think the immediate economic reactions are necessarily condemnations of Obama policies, as much as I think those policies are a bad idea.
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Re: The election is over........

Postby John86045 » September 18th, 2018, 1:14 am

It's right that our president has great authority in the way our country takes. However, it's important to remember that there are many others who play a role in making policy that can affect the investment situation. These involve members of Congress, local and state legislators, central regulators and other officials. For example, the central Reserve controls monetary policy, which includes monitoring inflation and the Federal interest rates. Politicians have limited to no influence over policy decisions made by the Fed.
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Re: The election is over........

Postby Michaels153 » September 18th, 2018, 7:07 am

All true John. It is sad to think about the people who use to come to this forum but no longer do. Hoosierguy explained it best. Things have not changed all that much except for the people who no longer post here.
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Re: The election is over........

Postby JuicedTruth » September 18th, 2018, 9:33 am

You always think, "I get smarter as I get older", but looking back at my analysis 6-7 years ago, it's amazing how smart I was back then :lol:
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Re: The election is over........

Postby Michaels153 » September 18th, 2018, 11:01 am

JuiceTruth: You always think, "I get smarter as I get older", but looking back at my analysis 6-7 years ago, it's amazing how smart I was back then


:roll: Actually, I never thought of you getting smarter as you got older. ;)
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