China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are fooli

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China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are fooli

Postby wobbly » September 14th, 2012, 9:18 am

Romney wasn't so concerned when he was making money doing business with China. Wobbly

China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are foolish'
September 14, 2012
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/world_n ... tions.html

BEIJING -- Mitt Romney’s tough talk on China is getting more pushback from authorities in Beijing.
On Thursday, the Republican presidential candidate released a new ad on manufacturing jobs contending that “for the first time, China is beating us” and that President Obama has “failed to stop China’s cheating.” Campaigning in Virginia, Romney added: "The president has had the chance year after year to label, to label China a currency manipulator, but he hasn't done so and I will label China the currency manipulator they are on the first day.”

The official New China news agency responded Friday with an editorial calling Romney’s remarks “as false as they are foolish” and saying that it is “ironic that a considerable portion of this China-battering politician's wealth was actually obtained by doing business with Chinese companies before he entered politics.”

The editorial warned that if Romney’s “mud-slinging tactics were to become U.S. government policies, a trade war would be very likely to break out between the world's top two economies, which would be catastrophic enough to both sides and the already groaning global economy.”

China’s currency, the renminbi, has appreciated about 30 percent against the dollar in the last seven years, but the government still plays a strong role in determining its valuation. The Congressional Research Service says the renminbi remains too cheap relative to the dollar, making Chinese goods inexpensive for U.S. consumers but making American goods relatively pricey for Chinese.

Some members of Congress have urged the Treasury Department to label China a “currency manipulator” in its semi-annual reports on international economic and exchange rate policies. But the Obama administration -– like the George W. Bush administration before it -– has refused, with officials indicating that doing so would just anger China without producing any tangible results.

Still, U.S. officials have repeatedly urged China to let market forces play a bigger role in determining the value of the currency versus the dollar.

“The process of correcting the misalignment of the exchange rate remains incomplete,” Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner said in a speech last spring, adding that the renminbi “needs to appreciate further against the dollar and the other major currencies.”

The New China news agency editorial Friday scolded the U.S. for its “lousy” economic recovery and “excruciatingly high jobless rate” and warned that “all U.S. politicians should be mindful that the task of maintaining a strong trade relationship is crucial not only to China, but also to the United States as well, especially in this time of global economic turbulence and uncertainty.”

It was the second time in about two weeks that China’s state-run press has fired back at the Romney campaign.

During the Republican National Convention in Florida, the China Daily called Mr. Romney’s policies “an outdated manifestation of a Cold War mentality” that “endorses the ‘China threat’ theory and focuses on containing China’s rise.”

On Romney’s campaign website, the candidate lays out his position on issues in Asia and says the U.S. should “strengthen alliances and relations with strategic partners like India and build stronger ties to influential countries like Indonesia.”

The document states that “our objective is not to build an anti-China coalition. Rather it is to strengthen cooperation among countries with which we share a concern about China’s growing power and increasing assertiveness. … It is yet another way of closing off China’s option of expanding its influence through coercion.”

The Republican Party platform singled out China as “the chief offender” in the theft of American patents, brands, technology and intellectual property. China, the GOP stated, “has built up its economy in part by piggybacking onto Western technological advances, manipulates its currency to the disadvantage of American exporters, excludes American products from government purchases, subsidizes Chinese companies to give them a commercial advantage, and invents regulations and standards designed to keep out foreign competition. The current Administration’s way of dealing with all these violations of world trade standards has been a virtual surrender.”

The China Daily commentary warned that Romney was “even more pugnacious” than Obama and concluded by saying:

“Making sensible policy recommendations about what are widely recognized as the most important bilateral ties in the world demands political vision as well as a profound knowledge of full width and breadth of Sino-U.S. relations. Romney apparently lacks both.”
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby hoosierguy » September 14th, 2012, 9:28 am

Boy, that is unofortunate. We wouldn't want to alienate our allies in China by actually discussing their currency manipulation. (Note that everyone outside of the PRC agrees that this is happening.) And what a shock: The people he is calling on inappropriate trade practices disagree with him! He must lack Obama's ability to sway the world with just the sound of his voice, right? Because China has absolutely stopped their currency manipulation since Obama took office, right?

Oh. Not at all. Huh. Weird.
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby wobbly » September 14th, 2012, 9:36 am

hoosierguy wrote:Boy, that is unofortunate. We wouldn't want to alienate our allies in China by actually discussing their currency manipulation. (Note that everyone outside of the PRC agrees that this is happening.) And what a shock: The people he is calling on inappropriate trade practices disagree with him! He must lack Obama's ability to sway the world with just the sound of his voice, right? Because China has absolutely stopped their currency manipulation since Obama took office, right?

Oh. Not at all. Huh. Weird.


SO, you would be all for a VAT on all imports from China, like I suggested some time ago?
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby hoosierguy » September 14th, 2012, 9:56 am

Absolutely not. In no way would I favor that. For a number of reasons, not the least being the ineffectiveness of them and the fact that they would decimate the standard of living here for pure spite.

There are better ways Wobbly.
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby wobbly » September 14th, 2012, 10:26 am

hoosierguy wrote:Absolutely not. In no way would I favor that. For a number of reasons, not the least being the ineffectiveness of them and the fact that they would decimate the standard of living here for pure spite.

There are better ways Wobbly.


A VAT would help protect American manufacturing and the jobs that go with it. A VAT would curb the dumping of cheap goods manufactured in China where manufactures a subsidized in part by the government, and from American investors like Romney. Our standard of living has already been decimated by imports and lost manufacturing. A VAT is an easy and sensible solution to the problem, and that safeguards american jobs, and curbs dumping of cheap subsidized goods from China. American companies would be less likely to manufacture products in China for import to the USA if they were faced with a VAT on those goods.
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby hoosierguy » September 14th, 2012, 11:05 am

Dumping is already illegal, and if China is doing it, they are already subject to penalties. (Read: Tariffs) As far as the standard of living argument, it actually hasn't been decimated at all. It's gone up, substantially.

The VAT not only would be impossible to enforce effectively, it wouldn't solve the problem. It would just drive prices here through the roof for finished goods while closing the Chinese markets to American manufacturing.
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby wobbly » September 14th, 2012, 11:22 am

hoosierguy wrote:Dumping is already illegal, and if China is doing it, they are already subject to penalties. (Read: Tariffs) As far as the standard of living argument, it actually hasn't been decimated at all. It's gone up, substantially.

What, under Obama?

The VAT not only would be impossible to enforce effectively, it wouldn't solve the problem. It would just drive prices here through the roof for finished goods while closing the Chinese markets to American manufacturing.


VAT's are used and enforced throughout the EU with little or no problems. As far as pricing goes, VAT keeps pricing in line with comparable products so as not to undercut local manufacturing with cheap subsidized or illegal labor from other countries.
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby hoosierguy » September 14th, 2012, 11:32 am

Wobbly, I was trying to be non-partisan in this, but since you introduced it, Obama has had one of the lowest increases in standard of living since Truman. In two of his four years it was negative. (Quality of life index) He has literally been the worst president since the depression for this standard.

As far as VAT enforcement, if it is just a sales tax, as they are in Europe, that's one thing. But you are trying to use them to engineer the market, specifically to stop dumping. (Which is already illegal and subject to tarriffs) It seems that you either don't know what "dumping" is, or you think that putting VAT's on low priced chinese goods is a great idea. I'm not sure which, but neither has any sort of effective standard by which to establish the guidelines. So it would be very tough to execute. And, once again, it would start a really stupid trade war, devestating our economy.

What makes more sense is to encourage growth of manufacturing here by reducing taxation, regulation, and cost and that way we can make more advanced goods,that we can send to the growing Chinese market for sale. Boom. Everyone gets happy.
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby wobbly » September 14th, 2012, 12:02 pm

Hoosier, I know what dumping is and China has been found to be doing it on many fronts. As far as a VAT, I am in favor of one like they use in the EU, that is easily adjusted. I haven't seen any indication of a trade war between China and the EU, just fairer pricing of goods. If you want an Iphone in England you will have to pay the real cost of the product.
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby hoosierguy » September 14th, 2012, 2:11 pm

When you say "the real cost of the product" what you actually mean is "what the product would cost if it was produced here." Given that this would increase the cost of the product, the demand goes down. Fewer units are sold. Consumers suffer, because they can't afford a product. Company suffers, because they sell fewer units. Cui bono? The government. And only the government benefits. The workers dont, because you aren't actually creating any jobs nor encouraging anyone to keep jobs here. You are just adjusting costs.

Its a truly horrible idea. Just terrible.
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby Red Pill » September 14th, 2012, 4:08 pm

wobbly wrote:
hoosierguy wrote:Absolutely not. In no way would I favor that. For a number of reasons, not the least being the ineffectiveness of them and the fact that they would decimate the standard of living here for pure spite.

There are better ways Wobbly.


A VAT would help protect American manufacturing and the jobs that go with it. A VAT would curb the dumping of cheap goods manufactured in China where manufactures a subsidized in part by the government, and from American investors like Romney. Our standard of living has already been decimated by imports and lost manufacturing. A VAT is an easy and sensible solution to the problem, and that safeguards american jobs, and curbs dumping of cheap subsidized goods from China. American companies would be less likely to manufacture products in China for import to the USA if they were faced with a VAT on those goods.


I had to replace the 6hp engine on my rototiller recently. My choice was the Wisconsin-made Briggs for $350, or a Chinese one from Harbor Freight for $94. (The Chinese one is identical to a Honda engine. Same assembly line, just different stickers and paint.)

I chose the Chinese one. Works great. Tough luck for those guys in Wisconsin. But you know what? The folks down at Lure Bistro in Willoughby will be very happy, because I'm using a good chunk of the $250 I saved to take my wife out for a really nice anniversary dinner. I imagine they'll be glad to see me at Oliver Twist, also, because with another chunk of that $250 I saved by buying the Chinese engine instead of the overpriced U.S. made engine, I'm going to ply her with chocolate martinis and some yummy desserts.

Wobbly, I'll leave you to figure out the lesson here.
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby Fake Gary » September 14th, 2012, 4:20 pm

Red Pill wrote:
I had to replace the 6hp engine on my rototiller recently. My choice was the Wisconsin-made Briggs for $350, or a Chinese one from Harbor Freight for $94. (The Chinese one is identical to a Honda engine. Same assembly line, just different stickers and paint.)

I chose the Chinese one. Works great. Tough luck for those guys in Wisconsin. But you know what? The folks down at Lure Bistro in Willoughby will be very happy, because I'm using a good chunk of the $250 I saved to take my wife out for a really nice anniversary dinner. I imagine they'll be glad to see me at Oliver Twist, also, because with another chunk of that $250 I saved by buying the Chinese engine instead of the overpriced U.S. made engine, I'm going to ply her with chocolate martinis and some yummy desserts.

Wobbly, I'll leave you to figure out the lesson here.


Here's the trouble with your scenario, Silly Pilly. Sure the people at the Bistro were happy to have you spend your money at their eatery. Now try to follow this. The people at the Bistro will take the money they made off of you and spend it at Walmart buying things made in China............Now try to keep up Silly Pilly.........the more that circular flow of cash happens, the standard of living in China increases as the standard of living in the U.S. declines. And guess what........very few people will ultimately have the cash to pay for a fancy meal and the fancy eatery will go belly up because too many people sent their cash to China.
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby wobbly » September 14th, 2012, 4:35 pm

Pill wrote: I had to replace the 6hp engine on my rototiller recently. My choice was the Wisconsin-made Briggs for $350, or a Chinese one from Harbor Freight for $94. (The Chinese one is identical to a Honda engine.


Just out of curiosity, what was the make of the engine you were replacing?
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby hoosierguy » September 14th, 2012, 4:44 pm

Red, can you explain it to me? Because I think you are saying that dollars not spent on more expensive products produced here are still spent on other goods and services that are provided effectively. I remember somewhere in the dusty old boxes of books I have in my basement an econ 101 book that talked about efficient spending and opportunity cost, I swear there is something to that here...
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby Fake Gary » September 14th, 2012, 5:00 pm

hoosierguy wrote:Red, can you explain it to me? Because I think you are saying that dollars not spent on more expensive products produced here are still spent on other goods and services that are provided effectively. I remember somewhere in the dusty old boxes of books I have in my basement an econ 101 book that talked about efficient spending and opportunity cost, I swear there is something to that here...


And in that Econ 101 text book is described the concept of leakages and injections within a closed economy. Gotcha, Sweetheart.
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby wobbly » September 14th, 2012, 5:01 pm

hoosierguy wrote:Red, can you explain it to me? Because I think you are saying that dollars not spent on more expensive products produced here are still spent on other goods and services that are provided effectively. I remember somewhere in the dusty old boxes of books I have in my basement an econ 101 book that talked about efficient spending and opportunity cost, I swear there is something to that here...


I guess that only applies to goods, and not services? Because I know you said that paying lower prices to foreign medical professionals leads to inferior medical services.
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby hoosierguy » September 14th, 2012, 5:05 pm

I did? When did I say that? I said that lowering compensation rates will diminish their interest in coming here, but my doctor is an immigrant and he's awesome. I just don't think that foreign doctors come here because we're the U.S. of A. and we are so badass. They come here because our compensation system is far superior to theirs, and if we stop offering that, we won't get the talent.

But I never said they offer inferior services. Not sure if that was confusion or not, but it was surely a straw man. Amazing how every time your arguments reach their logical and obviously silly conclusion you toss out some straw man or red herring.
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby Fake Gary » September 14th, 2012, 5:06 pm

wobbly wrote:
hoosierguy wrote:Red, can you explain it to me? Because I think you are saying that dollars not spent on more expensive products produced here are still spent on other goods and services that are provided effectively. I remember somewhere in the dusty old boxes of books I have in my basement an econ 101 book that talked about efficient spending and opportunity cost, I swear there is something to that here...


I guess that only applies to goods, and not services? Because I know you said that paying lower prices to foreign medical professionals leads to inferior medical services.


Don't waste your keystrokes Wobbles. HoosierGirlie can't deal with situations that have more than one variable.
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby Red Pill » September 14th, 2012, 6:56 pm

Fake Gary wrote:
Red Pill wrote:
I had to replace the 6hp engine on my rototiller recently. My choice was the Wisconsin-made Briggs for $350, or a Chinese one from Harbor Freight for $94. (The Chinese one is identical to a Honda engine. Same assembly line, just different stickers and paint.)

I chose the Chinese one. Works great. Tough luck for those guys in Wisconsin. But you know what? The folks down at Lure Bistro in Willoughby will be very happy, because I'm using a good chunk of the $250 I saved to take my wife out for a really nice anniversary dinner. I imagine they'll be glad to see me at Oliver Twist, also, because with another chunk of that $250 I saved by buying the Chinese engine instead of the overpriced U.S. made engine, I'm going to ply her with chocolate martinis and some yummy desserts.

Wobbly, I'll leave you to figure out the lesson here.


Here's the trouble with your scenario, Silly Pilly. Sure the people at the Bistro were happy to have you spend your money at their eatery. Now try to follow this. The people at the Bistro will take the money they made off of you and spend it at Walmart buying things made in China............Now try to keep up Silly Pilly.........the more that circular flow of cash happens, the standard of living in China increases as the standard of living in the U.S. declines. And guess what........very few people will ultimately have the cash to pay for a fancy meal and the fancy eatery will go belly up because too many people sent their cash to China.


Wrong.

By purchasing the Chinese engine, my standard of living went up versus if I had purchased the Briggs. I ended up with an engine for my rototiller, a nice meal with my wife, chocolate martinis, and some yummy desserts. If I had bought the Briggs, I would have only had the motor.

Assuming the folks from Bistro were able to purchase more products (for the amount of money they made off me) at Walmart than they would have if they limited themselves to more expensive American-made products, well, then their standard of living increased. Maybe instead of just a new pair of jeans, they were able to buy a pair of jeans AND a new video game. They enjoy benefits similar to the ones I received by buying the lessor expensive products. Winning!

In fact, everybody wins. The American consumers win because they get more stuff for less money (labor). The Chinese win because they get money (to buy stuff they need) for making stuff that makes us happy. Win! Win!
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby Red Pill » September 14th, 2012, 7:02 pm

wobbly wrote:
Pill wrote: I had to replace the 6hp engine on my rototiller recently. My choice was the Wisconsin-made Briggs for $350, or a Chinese one from Harbor Freight for $94. (The Chinese one is identical to a Honda engine.


Just out of curiosity, what was the make of the engine you were replacing?


Briggs. The Chinese motor bolted right up - same mounting pattern. Moved the pulley over and reused the belt. Plus it has low oil shutdown, which I don't think the Briggs had. Sweet!

From the standpoint of overall societal benefits, trade restrictions are a loser. Sure, the producers of the products that are restricted receive the benefit of higher prices for their goods, but the consumers of those products end up poorer in the end.
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby Red Pill » September 14th, 2012, 7:04 pm

And by the way, the US government labeling the Chinese as "currency manipulators" is pretty rich, and very, very stupid.
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby wobbly » September 14th, 2012, 7:34 pm

Oddly enough Germany, who has a VAT is the fifth largest economy in the world, and has a strong economy, national health and old age benefits also enjoys a huge trade surplus, even with China. In fact Germany is the driving economic powerhouse of the EU.
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby Fake Gary » September 14th, 2012, 9:31 pm

Red Pill wrote:
Fake Gary wrote:
Here's the trouble with your scenario, Silly Pilly. Sure the people at the Bistro were happy to have you spend your money at their eatery. Now try to follow this. The people at the Bistro will take the money they made off of you and spend it at Walmart buying things made in China............Now try to keep up Silly Pilly.........the more that circular flow of cash happens, the standard of living in China increases as the standard of living in the U.S. declines. And guess what........very few people will ultimately have the cash to pay for a fancy meal and the fancy eatery will go belly up because too many people sent their cash to China.


Wrong.

By purchasing the Chinese engine, my standard of living went up versus if I had purchased the Briggs. I ended up with an engine for my rototiller, a nice meal with my wife, chocolate martinis, and some yummy desserts. If I had bought the Briggs, I would have only had the motor.

Assuming the folks from Bistro were able to purchase more products (for the amount of money they made off me) at Walmart than they would have if they limited themselves to more expensive American-made products, well, then their standard of living increased. Maybe instead of just a new pair of jeans, they were able to buy a pair of jeans AND a new video game. They enjoy benefits similar to the ones I received by buying the lessor expensive products. Winning!

In fact, everybody wins. The American consumers win because they get more stuff for less money (labor). The Chinese win because they get money (to buy stuff they need) for making stuff that makes us happy. Win! Win!



But Silliy Pilly, you left out one key economic concept.....that being equilibrium. I hate to make this simplistic so you can comprehend but here goes. Say you have two economies the U.S. versus the Chinese......and like I said for the sake of simplicity China has comparitive advantage in terms of labor......all things being equal. China starts out producing lots of things with their cheaper labor.....the U.S. consumer buys Chinese goods......wages in China increase and wages in the U.S. decrease. While in the short term every one is happy. But in the long run the forces of equilibrium will lower the purchase power of the U.S. consumer. I guess you never learned about the concept of equilibrum.
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby Michaels153 » September 15th, 2012, 2:48 am

While this discussion entertains different economic principles; the practical reaility seems to be discarded in favor of utilitarianism. VAT's in their least harmful form does neither guarantee an advantage to anyone and at best maintains a status quo that may only benefit the manufacturer and their employees. So if a union employee maintains their job that doesn't necessarily translate in a quality of life improvement to others. You know that the people who purchase products at wall mart can't afford Rodeo drive. Why bemoan that fact? It's like blaming the victim.
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby Red Pill » September 15th, 2012, 7:55 am

Michaels153 wrote:While this discussion entertains different economic principles; the practical reaility seems to be discarded in favor of utilitarianism. VAT's in their least harmful form does neither guarantee an advantage to anyone and at best maintains a status quo that may only benefit the manufacturer and their employees. So if a union employee maintains their job that doesn't necessarily translate in a quality of life improvement to others. You know that the people who purchase products at wall mart can't afford Rodeo drive. Why bemoan that fact? It's like blaming the victim.


Yep. Pretty much what I said.

"From the standpoint of overall societal benefits, trade restrictions are a loser. Sure, the producers of the products that are restricted receive the benefit of higher prices for their goods, but the consumers of those products end up poorer in the end."
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby wobbly » September 15th, 2012, 3:29 pm

Michaels153 wrote:While this discussion entertains different economic principles; the practical reaility seems to be discarded in favor of utilitarianism. VAT's in their least harmful form does neither guarantee an advantage to anyone and at best maintains a status quo that may only benefit the manufacturer and their employees. So if a union employee maintains their job that doesn't necessarily translate in a quality of life improvement to others. You know that the people who purchase products at wall mart can't afford Rodeo drive. Why bemoan that fact? It's like blaming the victim.


Michaels, if the VAT is of benefit to a US manufacture and his employees, doesn't that benefit "trickle down" ? Doesn't the manufacturer need raw materials, and equipment. Someone has to provide the equipment and raw materials, and they need to be shipped to the manufacturer, and doesn't the finished product need to be transported, to the wholesaler, who in turn sells and transports the product to the retailer, who then sells the product to the consumer. The employees of the manufacture buy products in their own community supporting local businesses.

How is it a good thing for a CEO to make millions of dollars, but bad for a union worker to make a decent wage, when they are both employees of the same company?

I don't see a down side to a VAT, unless you an importer of underpriced goods.
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby hoosierguy » September 15th, 2012, 3:45 pm

Or a consumer of goods.

By the way, what is an " underpriced good"?
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby Red Pill » September 15th, 2012, 4:32 pm

hoosierguy wrote:Or a consumer of goods.

By the way, what is an " underpriced good"?


While you're at it, please bestow upon us, in your infinite wisdom and omniscient powers of central planning, what a "decent wage" in various industries might be. A range, say, plus/minus 10% would be fine.

To keep it simple, split it up by the Bureau of Labor Statistics Standard for Aggregation Titles. No need for any greater detail. I wouldn't want you to spend too much time on such a nice day typing in page after page of numbers.

Goods-Producing
Natural resources and mining
Sector 11 (Agriculture, forestry, fishing and hunting)
Sector 21 (Mining)
Construction
Sector 23 (Construction)
Manufacturing
Sector 31-33 (Manufacturing)
Service-Providing
Trade, transportation, and utilities
Sector 42 (Wholesale trade)
Sector 44-45 (Retail trade)
Sector 48-49 (Transportation and warehousing)
Sector 22 (Utilities)
Information
Sector 51 (Information)
Financial activities
Sector 52 (Finance and insurance)
Sector 53 (Real estate and rental and leasing)
Professional and business services
Sector 54 (Professional, scientific, and technical services)
Sector 55 (Management of companies and enterprises)
Sector 56 (Administrative and support and waste management and remediation services)
Education and health services
Sector 61 (Education services)
Sector 62 (Health care and social assistance)
Leisure and hospitality
Sector 71 (Arts, entertainment, and recreation)
Sector 72 (Accommodation and food services)
Other services
Sector 81 (Other services, except public administration)
Public administration
Sector 92 (Public administration)
Unclassified
Sector 99 (Unclassified)
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby wobbly » September 15th, 2012, 5:43 pm

hoosierguy wrote:Or a consumer of goods.

By the way, what is an " underpriced good"?


Goods where manufacturing is supplemented by the government and sold for less than cost, think solar panels from China. Goods from sweat shops and shops that use child labor. Goods that are produced in countries with no or lax environmental regulations.
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby wobbly » September 15th, 2012, 5:57 pm

Pill wrote: While you're at it, please bestow upon us, in your infinite wisdom and omniscient powers of central planning, what a "decent wage" in various industries might be. A range, say, plus/minus 10% would be fine.


A wage for a forty hour work week, that necessitates paying income tax without deductions.

An indecent wage, would be one that pays ten times more than the one above, and it should pay taxes at 95% for all earnings above ten times the decent wage.
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby Michaels153 » September 16th, 2012, 3:45 am

:P

Wobbly, the hope is that the VAT is of benefit to the manufacturer and his employees. It doesn't mean that the consumer will choose that product and then there is no benefit, no "trickle down" ?
In an open/global market the consumer still shops and may go elsewhere. If the prouct is bought then everything else you said holds true. ~>Doesn't the manufacturer need raw materials, and equipment. Someone has to provide the equipment and raw materials, and they need to be shipped to the manufacturer, and doesn't the finished product need to be transported, to the wholesaler, who in turn sells and transports the product to the retailer, who then sells the product to the consumer. The employees of the manufacture buy products in their own community supporting local businesses.

How is it a good thing for a CEO to make millions of dollars, but bad for a union worker to make a decent wage, when they are both employees of the same company? (I never said this. But the other side of this is that efforts to even the competition do not necessarily result in the desired outcome that was hoped for and expected.

I don't see a down side to a VAT, unless you an importer of underpriced goods.[/quote]
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby hoosierguy » September 17th, 2012, 9:25 am

Wobbly, if you remove deductions, an annual wage of $10,000.00 is enough to pay some taxes.

As far as an "indecent" wage, you are sounding more like a socialist and less like a progressive there...
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby wobbly » September 17th, 2012, 10:41 am

hoosierguy wrote:Wobbly, if you remove deductions, an annual wage of $10,000.00 is enough to pay some taxes.

As far as an "indecent" wage, you are sounding more like a socialist and less like a progressive there...


OK, let me amend that to 3 times the poverty guideline of $11,170.00 x 3 = $33,510.00 per year.
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby hoosierguy » September 17th, 2012, 10:50 am

So anyone who makes $335,100.00 should be taxed at 95% then? That sounds a little bit...insane.

*Edit - One of the problems with this idea of a wage cap Wobbly. Notice that GM is trying to get free from under the thumb of the government because of that exact thing, and it is hurting their ability to compete. And while you might be able to use that to control the domestic market, you can't force foreign countries to do the same. So the talent will just go overseas, making you less competitive and in the long run, doing far more harm than good. It's a terrible idea.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/genera ... 2012-09-17
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby wobbly » September 17th, 2012, 11:46 am

hoosierguy wrote:So anyone who makes $335,100.00 should be taxed at 95% then? That sounds a little bit...insane.

*Edit - One of the problems with this idea of a wage cap Wobbly. Notice that GM is trying to get free from under the thumb of the government because of that exact thing, and it is hurting their ability to compete. And while you might be able to use that to control the domestic market, you can't force foreign countries to do the same. So the talent will just go overseas, making you less competitive and in the long run, doing far more harm than good. It's a terrible idea.

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/genera ... 2012-09-17


Maybe not having a wage cap, was one of the reasons they went under in the first place. CEO and executive pay/compensation in this country is out of control, compared to most other countries. When an employee of a company makes 100 times what other workers for the same company make, something is out of whack.

http://www.aflcio.org/Corporate-Watch/C ... in-CEO-Pay
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby hoosierguy » September 17th, 2012, 12:07 pm

Not interested in what the AFL-CIO has to say about executive compensation, unless it's about the compensation their own leadership gets.

As far as executive compensation as part of GM's failure, it simply isn't enough money to have had any impact whatsoever. Executive compensation is a rounding error on their budget sheet, not a line of consequence.

And your idea is still a horrible one.
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Re: China calls Romney's accusations 'as false as they are f

Postby Michaels153 » November 25th, 2019, 7:20 am

persiswilson5 wrote:````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````````

Get lost.
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